Joint press conference, Auckland, New Zealand

Winston Peters, New Zealand Foreign Minister: Well, it's my pleasure to welcome the Australian Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Defence, and also Senator the Honourable Penny Wong, Minister of Foreign Affairs, to New Zealand for Australia–New Zealand Foreign and Defence Ministers’ Consultations, or as we know in the bureaucracy, ANZMIN. The closeness of our nations has never been more important to safeguard our national interests and charter a course towards a more peaceful, stable and prosperous world. To achieve this, we recognise that our foreign policy, security and defence interests are deeply intertwined and warrant being pursued in a strategically integrated way. For New Zealand, Australia is our closest partner, friend and our only formal ally. Together with our Australian colleagues, we are pleased to have set out here today our ambitions for our Trans-Tasman partnership. And so it's my pleasure to introduce to you now, the Minister of Foreign Affairs for Australia, the Honourable Penny Wong.

Penny Wong, Foreign Minister: Thank you very much Deputy Prime Minister, can I thank you and Minister Collins for your warm welcome and your hospitality at our second ANZMIN meeting in such beautiful surroundings. It's been a very constructive, positive, productive meeting, as you would expect, between friends, between family. We have a uniquely close relationship and we do meet at a time where the sort of integration in our work together that the Deputy Prime Minister spoke about is just so important. We are in a permanent state of contest in our region, that is the reality. And the Deputy Prime Minister of New Zealand has described the importance of being a participant and not a spectator in that. Working together, that's what we are seeking to do, to be participants in the reshaping of our region, in pursuit of the same objectives, which are peace, security, stability and prosperity in our region. Examples of the work we are doing together to date, and I thank the Deputy Prime Minister for that, we're working together in Tuvalu's coastal adaptation project, we're working together in the Pacific Humanitarian Warehousing program, we're both contributing to weather ready Pacific to provide early, crucial early warning systems for severe weather events, we're working together to support connectivity in the region through the Pacific connect cable to together with the US and Japan, as well as our work together in oceans and fisheries. We are stronger together when we work with each other in support of our of the region, when we work with our Pacific neighbours, and New Zealand has a particular and an important role in the Pacific, and we recognize and respect that and are grateful for their cooperation. So thank you to the Deputy Prime Minister, thank you to Minister Collins. We look forward to building on this work between now and our next meeting.

Richard Marles, Deputy Prime Minister: Thank you, Penny, and Winston and Judith, it's been a real pleasure to be here in New Zealand and we very much appreciate your hospitality for what is the second ANZMIN this year, which makes 2024 a significant year in the context of Australia-New Zealand relations. In a moment, Judith and I will be signing the Joint Statement on Closer Defence Relations, and it reflects a program that between Judith and myself we have been implementing to see our two defence forces become much more integrated. We now have deputy commanders in our respective operational commands, this is transformative in terms of how we plan our defence deployments. As a result, we've seen this year Australia and New Zealand cooperate in terms of maritime cooperative activities, we saw New Zealand participate in significant force at exercise Pitch Black in Darwin earlier in the year, the major Air Force exercise that we do in Australia and one of the major Air Force exercises that occurs within the world. Next year, we will see New Zealand's largest presence at exercise Talisman Sabre, which is the signature exercise that Australia engages in. We're looking at ways in which we can do more within the Pacific and two months ago, Judith hosted a very successful South Pacific Defence Ministers’ meeting here in Auckland and as part of that, our two countries have worked together on the establishment of the Pacific Response Group, which is making a real difference in terms of coordinating the defence forces of the Pacific, particularly in responding to humanitarian and disaster relief events. We're looking at ways in which we can explore procurement together. And the joint declaration that we're about to sign will provide ambition for these objectives going forward, so that our two defence forces will plan together, procure together, and operate together in a much more significant way. In 2024, this is building Anzac, quite literally, and it is the way that we ensure that the money that we spend on defence has the biggest impact. It is about how much we spend, but it's about the quality of that spend as well, and working together maximizes that. As Penny said, we live in a difficult world. We live in a world where the strategic landscape is as complex as it has been since the end of the Second World War, we are seeing the rules-based order, which is very much in the interests of Australia, but also of New Zealand, being placed under significant pressure in places like Eastern Europe, but throughout the Indo-Pacific as well. And in this moment, it is absolutely critical that we are doubling down on our closest relationships, and in respect of New Zealand, what that means is that we are doubling down on family.

Judith Collins, New Zealand Defence Minister: Well thank you very much, and I'm so delighted, along with Winston, to have Penny and Richard here with us today. Our relationship with Australia goes back a very long way. I like to sometimes remind people we were once a colony of New South Wales, which was pretty staggering, but neither I nor Winston were there at the time. Having said that, we do go back a long way when it comes to defence, whether it was in World War One with the Anzac forces, but all the way through, we have been together as much as we possibly can. And our defence alliance with Australia goes back to 1952 with the ANZUS alliance post World War Two. And that strength that we have together is continuing to grow, and is particularly important now. As has been noted, the world is not a happy place, our Pacific is not free of conflict and tension and stress and strategic manoeuvring, and we have to play our part, not only to protect and look after ourselves, but also our Pacific neighbours and the Southeast Asian area. We are so much better when we are working together. And that's why earlier this year, when Richard and I met and decided that we should have something like an Anzac force, that is exactly what we've been doing this year, making that a reality, much more interoperability. We already have a very long relationship with our service people, with each other between Australia and New Zealand, but we're taking it further, and that is because we have shared interests. We have shared interests, but we also have liberal democratic values, and we value very much the same things like the rule of law, like freedom of expression, these are the sorts of things that we consider very important. We're also aware that the Pacific is becoming increasingly difficult when it comes to the international rules-based order and stresses on that, and we need to be able to work together. So that's why Richard and I are going to be signing our updated Statement on Closer Defence Relations and then putting it in practice, because all the things we've promised each other this year, we have delivered on together. So we're feeling very happy about that. It's good to have family that you can count on.

Speaker: Before questions, I now invite media to capture the formal signing of the Australia-New Zealand Joint Statement on Closer Defence Relations.

[signing occurs]

Journalist: First of all for the Foreign Ministers, since you first met things have globally deteriorated in terms of stability; Israel-Gaza, Ukraine, now Syria. When you look towards 2025 generally, how do you feel about the outlook for the world? And what can New Zealand and Australia actually contribute towards improving it?

Deputy Prime Minister Peters: Well, look, the meeting of Penny Wong and myself was not the occasion of that world changing in the way you framed that question. But never mind, the reality is that it is a more difficult world, and more is happening in parts of the world we thought we're not part of our bailiwick, but they are, whether it's in Europe or whether it's in our part of the world. Our purpose is to ensure we get in front of events by means of our cooperation and preparedness, and that's what we're doing.

Minister Wong: You're right, the outlook is increasingly complicated, it is. But we have to start from the place of saying, you know, we have some agency. We may not be able to control or determine what happens across the world, but we have choices about what we do and we make those choices. We make those choices every day in what we do in the Pacific, in in the Indo-Pacific, more broadly, and we make the choice to work together as closely as we do. In the Pacific, you are very lucky, frankly, to have Deputy Prime Minister Peters, who speaks with weight and gravitas and wisdom in his engagement with the Pacific. And that matters, that matters for the stability of both countries– sorry, stability of the region, which is in both countries’ interest. So we will continue to do what we need to do, which is to have our countries work together as partners for strategic stability, for regional stability and for peace.

Journalist: For our Defence Ministers, obviously New Zealand, we’re still licking our wounds from Manawanui sinking and other related costs, along with defence cuts. Realistically, how much can New Zealand contribute to joint operations and what can Australia expect, you’ve (inaudible) bad news to Australia today, Minister Collins–

Minister Collins: What about?

Journalist: About costs and–

Minister Collins: No, I’m not imparting any such bad news.

Journalist: (Inaudible)

Minister Collins: No, I think it's very important that we understand that we're not licking our wounds, not at all. In fact, our Royal New Zealand Navy has absolutely stepped up, done the right thing and been incredibly honest and transparent about what was a very difficult situation. What I can say is that, obviously there's cost to that, but ultimately New Zealand is doing its part. We have, as you will be aware, three ships that are in care and custody because we didn't have enough crew. We now have crew available for one of those ships, so it's getting itself ready, and it will be out at sea next year. So I think we need to understand is that New Zealand's been through a very difficult time in defence. You will know as well that last year we were facing up to 17.7% attrition, which was extraordinary, we had a total hollowing out. That has been reversed, we are down to about 7.2% attrition, and we have more people wanting to join Defence than what we've got the capability of training and getting them into places. So look, we're in a far better situation than we were. As you will know, we're undergoing the process of the Defence Capability Plan, the DCP, and it's quite a long process, because this world has changed this last year, and we're trying to make sure that we have something that is credible. But everything that we're doing, we're looking to see how we can be more interoperable with Australia, that is our only formal ally, but also our closest friend and family member, and we have to be very realistic about it. We need to work together. So I don't think we've got any bad news, I think what we're doing is we're working very much towards the positive. So I'll pass over to you, Richard.

Deputy Prime Minister Marles: We deeply value the New Zealand Defence Force, as we deeply value New Zealand, and we deeply value our relationship with New Zealand. In the last 12 months, what we've seen is the first joint sail of our two navies in many, many years. That's a really important step forward. We are looking at other areas where we can work together. A critical area is, obviously, in the Pacific and as I mentioned earlier, Judith hosted a really successful South Pacific Defence Ministers’ Meeting here in Auckland two months ago. A Pacific Response Group, which both of our defence forces are contributing to is really ground-breaking in terms of building a Pacific defence family in a real and operational sense, which makes a difference in terms of responding to natural disasters. So New Zealand has a really significant role to play in defence. The New Zealand Defence Force, there are huge, obviously personal links which exist between our two defence forces, so at that level, there is a huge value which is placed upon the relationship and the contribution that the NZDF can make, and we're really excited about, as we look forward, to that relationship being more integrated, being closer, being more Anzac.

Journalist: Is 2% of GDP on defence spending, is that seen as a floor or ceiling from either side? And is there a commitment from either side to reaching or maintaining that level of spending?

Deputy Prime Minister Marles: Well, I mean, people often focus on that particular metric. We will make our own, both countries, our own decisions around what we spend in respect of defence. I think what is right to say is that in a rational world, defence spending is a function of strategic complexity and strategic threat, and we certainly assess that we live in a much more strategically complex world, and that's why we're increasing defence spending in Australia. But as important as the amount, is the quality of the spend, and we really focused on that. We're focused on that in terms of our own decision making in Australia, about prioritizing how we spend the defence budget, but an obvious way in which we can maximize that is by working closely together with New Zealand. And that's really why creating a more Anzac force is so much in the interests of both of us, because it really does go to ensuring that whatever we're spending on defence, the quality of that spend is maximized.

Journalist: For the Australian Ministers, the Labour Party here has declared it wouldn’t join AUKUS in any capacity. Is that misguided and what would the consequences for New Zealand be if it did not join AUKUS, particularly with a view into the Pacific?

Deputy Prime Minister Marles: I think we just need to take a deep breath here for a moment. Firstly, AUKUS is a technology transferring arrangement between the United States, the United Kingdom and Australia. Pillar I is in relation to Australia acquiring a particular submarine capability, and that is very much between the three countries. Pillar II is looking at ways in which we can work together as three countries on innovative defence technologies, and we are putting in place a program where that's happening. Right now, if we're being honest, the three of us are very much focused on making sure that our own defence science, our own innovation systems are maximized, so that we really are being able to, as best possible, coordinate the way in which we operate to work on those newer innovative defence technologies. We have embarked on a process of speaking with other countries on a case by case basis, meaning project by project basis, looking at where there might be opportunities to cooperate in the future in respect of various defence technologies now. Now none of that's about to happen tomorrow, this is a long way down the track, but we are having those conversations. We've made clear that the first country with whom we would cooperate with is Japan. But even there, that's not about to happen tomorrow either. It's pretty natural that we would be looking at talking with other countries who have capability and where there is very close strategic trust, and that's obviously Five Eyes countries in the context of Canada and New Zealand, as well as speaking with Korea. So that's where it's at. I mean this, the debate is sometimes put in terms of joining some kind of club. That's not what really is going on here. In terms of AUKUS Pillar II we're talking about in the future and a fair way down the track, whether there is the possibility to cooperate on specific technology projects. Yes, we're exploring, it’s that early days, it's not more than that.

Minister Wong: Perhaps I can respond to the I think the underlying question which is, how do we respond, how does any country respond to the strategic circumstances that we are all describing? Which are more difficult for both of our countries. Each country makes its own sovereign decisions about how to deal with that. We've made a set of decisions, including in relation to AUKUS, but more generally, about how we want to contribute to regional stability, how we want to contribute to peace. I've seen some comments about containment, and what I'd say to you is, no, we don't engage in this for that objective, we engage in these decisions always for the purpose of seeking greater regional stability in circumstances where we see more contest and more competition. We do it because we want to see a region where international law, including in relation to the Law of the Sea, and in the South China Sea, is respected. We do this because we want to see a region where no country is dominant, and no country is dominated, where all of us can make our sovereign choices to agree and to disagree. And you know, New Zealand is a partner in that, in many ways, and a friend.

Deputy Prime Minister Peters: Can I just say, look, yesterday, we had the privilege of going two and a half hours by road north of Nouméa to a place called Bourail, where there is a cemetery which is a tribute to them and ourselves, of our soldiers and airmen that died and were taken there for treatment, but nevertheless, they died and are buried there. It's a very, very salutary lesson to be walking there and seeing how many young New Zealanders who are there buried and to remember the famous poem by Donne ‘ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee’. They went to war because we weren't prepared in the first place. Our job is to ensure that we have the military preparation so that war is not an option for others.

Journalist: What's your response to comments from Prime Minister Netanyahu’s office criticising Australia for its change in position on Israel, and can you clarify Australia’s position on recognising Palestine as a state?

Minister Wong: Well first, Australia supports and has historically been a friend of Israel, and Australia supports a two state solution. We have been clear that we want to see the cycle of violence that we are all witnessing, end. We want to contribute in the ways we can with partners, to peace and to towards a two state solution. We've been clear that Palestinian civilians cannot continue to pay the price of defeating Hamas. We are concerned that we see a year since the overwhelming majority of countries, including New Zealand and Australia, voted for a ceasefire, and now we see tens of thousand more killed, including some 13-14,000 children. Reflect on that for a moment. So we see a two state solution as the only way to assure peace and security for Israelis and Palestinians alike. In relation to recognition, what I have said is that we see recognition as a potential contributor to a process of peace, and that the international community does need to be part of that.

Journalist: What ways has Australia supported the Kanak desire for independence in New Caledonia?

Minister Wong: Well, can I first acknowledge and thank Winston for, as he indicated, he's recently been in New Caledonia. These are issues that need to be resolved by the people of New Caledonia and by France. But what we don't want to see is the sort of violence that we saw, and we hope that there can be a peaceful process of engagement. And I know it's important that the other countries engage to support that and facilitate that, and we're very pleased that New Zealand is doing so.

Journalist: How can Australia support and facilitate that?

Minister Wong: I've answered your question.

Deputy Prime Minister Marles: I agree with what Penny said, obviously.

Journalist: Minister Peters perhaps? What impact has France’s unstable political situation had on New Zealand’s efforts to try and get some stability in New Caledonia?

Deputy Prime Minister Peters: Well, the situation in Paris is inconvenient. It's not the best of circumstances to have the uncertainty going on there. But we've got to press on with New Caledonia. And we went there to listen, to hear all sides of the story, to talk to them about what they all wanted and whether they could combine going forward and agree on a pathway that say 15-20 years from now they could settle on. The complex thing, of course, is that you've got not just two or three different views, you've got a range of Kanak views themselves. But here's the point: France is a first world country, France is the country is able to help them with billions of dollars a year. Where would you get a replacement? So our job is to find their long term ambitions in terms of independence, in happy cooperation with France. And we're not giving out the formula now, but we're saying, if we can possibly help, we can show you how in our long struggle to get equality, we have made progress despite all the politics, and if we can demonstrate to the Kanak how you can use your land better because of certification of ownership and cooperation that we had the benefit of (inaudible). We saw vacuums there, which we believe we could fill, and come over New Zealand, we'll show you how it's done. Not to show off, but we want to help, genuinely, because you're our nearest neighbour and you're critical to the peace and stability of the Pacific.

Journalist: Geo-politically things are pretty tense in the region and I know there is that concern about Kiribati. What about the bases, how much concern is there over China establishing bases in Antarctica in terms of the regional stability?

Minister Wong: Well, we all understand we live in a time of permanent contest in our region. We all understand that there is greater competition for influence and for strategic space. And we also all understand that our job is even though we're middle powers, we’re not great superpowers, but we have a job all of us to contribute to stability and peace, including through deterrence, and we're very grateful for the cooperation, I think you described it as the intertwining work that we do and for the shared objectives. There's such a deal of alignment between us.