Radio interview - ABC Tasmania, Mornings with Leon Compton

Leon Compton, host: Australia's Foreign Minister Penny Wong in Tasmania. At a speech last night, the Foreign Minister heckled by protestors angry at the Government's non-sanctioning of Israel at a recent vote in the United Nations, and it's an interesting look through your text questions this morning and how many of them are focused on that issue. We'll get to them in a moment. If you've got a question, text me.

I can also tell you the Foreign Minister is in the process of launching a new focus for humanitarian policy for Australia. Penny Wong, good morning to you.

Penny Wong, Foreign Minister: Good morning, Leon. Good to be with you.

Compton: Your Government is launching a new humanitarian policy, Foreign Minister, that says it will aim to, 'strengthen adherence to international humanitarian law.' Can I ask you to describe Israel's adherence to international humanitarian law in Gaza and Lebanon, as Israel prosecutes the atrocities of October 7?

Foreign Minister: Look, we have said from the start of this conflict that Israel was required to adhere to international law. And that includes the protection of civilians, the protection of aid workers. This is something we have said from day one, and you might recall that Mr Dutton has been very critical of me for saying so.

I made the point at the United Nations in the National Statement there, that we have – there are rules of war and those rules apply even when confronting terrorists and even when acting in self-defence. So, we should continue to express our view that Israel is bound by international law, and work with others, as we have, to continue to press Israel on particular issues, and the most recent issue, obviously, is access of humanitarian aid into Gaza, where you've seen developments overnight.

Compton: And we'll get to those in just a moment. So, can you confirm you're of a view that the Israeli Government under Benjamin Netanyahu have breached international humanitarian law in its conflict – in its conduct of this war?

Foreign Minister: Well, Leon, ultimately those are decisions that international tribunals make. My job as the Foreign Minister for this country is not to sit as the international tribunal but to advocate for, and with others, advocate for, innocent civilians, and that's what we're doing.

Compton: Can you understand the frustration that perhaps your language isn't stronger on this, Penny Wong? I'll read you a question that's come in from one listener. It was the shortest of the questions we've received, many of them about exactly this. 'Can you ask Penny Wong when she's going to call for a ceasefire and stand up against the genocide?'

Foreign Minister: I have called for a ceasefire. I did that months ago. And this is the problem with this debate, Leon – there's a lot of disinformation that's going around. You know, people – one person said yesterday, 'When are you going to stop bombing Lebanon?' I said, we've called for a ceasefire in Lebanon. We joined with the United States and all members of the G7 to call for a ceasefire in Lebanon over a week ago. In fact, that's what Peter Dutton has been criticising the Government for. I called, the Prime Minister called, and we voted for a ceasefire months ago. We've said there should be a ceasefire in Gaza.

Compton: The US, and you talked about, sort of the way things are turning overnight. Unless I'm wrong, are you referring to the fact that Israel have given – rather, the US have given Israel 30 days to improve humanitarian aid access to Gaza or else military support could be halted?

Foreign Minister: Those and other actions by partners is what I was referring to. And I want to start by saying this: we can't have Palestinian civilians continuing to pay the price for defeating Hamas. I've said that to Israel directly and personally, and I've said that publicly. I've said that, and I've been criticised for it by Mr Dutton. Part of what we agreed as an international community is you have to allow humanitarian aid in. When I went to Israel I put that directly to the President and to the Foreign Minister. We support the US and others who are putting pressure on Israel to allow more aid in.

Compton: How do you explain the fact that Israel seems to just be able to feel it can – I mean, it has a right to do, you know, as it will, but it seems to have a right – see its role as thumbing its nose at its allies who are putting whatever level of pressure is being applied? It thumbs its nose to that pressure.

Foreign Minister: Well, I'm not going to speak for Israel. I speak for Australia and the Australian Government, and our position from the start has been, you know, we, like all – I think all around the world looked at the atrocities of October 7, we recognise Israel's right to respond to what was the greatest loss of Jewish life since the Holocaust. We understand what that meant. We know hostages are still being held.

We've also said how Israel responds matters. And that international law, which includes the protection of civilians must be observed. I pointed out that we have seen over 11,000 children killed in Israel's response since this conflict began. And that – we are deeply concerned about the loss of civilian life and that Palestinian civilians can't continue to pay the price of defeating Hamas. I've said all of these things.

I appreciate that some people would like us to end the war. That is not within our power. I also appreciate that there are some people who don't like the fact that I talk about international law. You've seen a lot of criticism from Mr Dutton of me and the Prime Minister for talking about that. But I'll continue to argue that, because that is in Australia's interests.

Compton: Penny Wong is our guest this morning, Australia's Foreign Minister. You were speaking in Hobart last night, protestors interrupted your speech, heckled you repeatedly. Can I ask what you felt at that moment? Those that were there suggested that you seemed to be experiencing frustration. Can I ask what you felt during that interruption?

Foreign Minister: I think it was probably the 10th interruption, I was a bit frustrated I couldn't finish a sentence. Look, I understand the depth of feeling this issue generates. I understand people are upset, horrified, distressed by what they are seeing. What I'd say is what I said there – I don't think we gain anything by shouting each other down. And I don't think we gain anything by being disrespectful to one another. And some of the things that were being said and shouted were not true. As I said, the example – one example is being told to stop bombing Lebanon. We are calling for a ceasefire in Lebanon. So, these are, you know, untruths which are told as part of people's response. This is a hard issue for Australians, and what I'd say is, we should try and deal with it respectfully. And I don't think you ever gain by shouting another person down.

Compton: On Mornings around Tasmania a couple of other policy issues: you're releasing a new humanitarian policy focus document for Australia. It's obviously complex. So, in a simple way of addressing this for our listener, might be asking this question: Penny Wong, how is it different from the policy that it replaces?

Foreign Minister: Well, it's responding to the world as it is. I mean, we've got more people displaced in the world. We have 117 million people around the world displaced. We've got more people who need humanitarian assistance. We've got 300-plus million people who need humanitarian assistance this year. So, we have to recast our policy to prioritise. And the three priorities are we're going to focus on – there are three Rs really. One is readiness, so we want to do more to make sure we are ready for and prepared with local communities and countries for disasters before they occur. Second, we've got to respond, so respond to crises and deliver more support, particularly with others. And the third is reinforce – reinforce the international humanitarian system to say, look, these rules that humanity came together and agreed after World War II, that we would protect civilians, that we would protect aid workers – and you might recall, we had an Australian killed by the Israeli Defence Force, and I've spoken a lot about that, in a strike – that we would work with others to try and reinforce the international humanitarian system. That is the system that enables both protection of people and also aid to get in. So they're the three priorities.

Compton: Can we move on to a different issue, which is allied in some way?

Foreign Minister: Sure.

Compton: It would be great for the competition and it would be great for Papua New Guinea if Papua New Guinea gets a rugby league team. How significant would the federal – is the fact that the Federal Government would contribute seeing it as a way of sort of boosting international relations in the near region? How significant is that proposal for relationships between Australia and PNG?

Foreign Minister: I think it's really significant, Leon. And what I would say is this: you know, if you look at how do we make ourselves more safe and secure in the world, part of what we do is we ensure we have deep, stable, strong relationships with our near neighbours, with our region. And to do that we have to make sure we look at what is it we bring to the relationship. Now, some of that is history, people to people, some of that is economic. But some of it also is, you know, culture. And that includes sport. It's part of who we are. It's who, you know, Papua New Guinea is. So, obviously, Prime Minister Marape of Papua New Guinea has been really clear that he wants Papua New Guinea to be in the NRL. We know how much – if you've been – I don't know if you've been to PNG, Leon, but they're pretty focused on sport, both men and women. And obviously there's a women's team as well. So, I hope that we can get this moving and make a good announcement in the near future.

Compton: And how significant with would that be, Penny Wong, in helping combat the influence of China in Papua New Guinea and the wider region?

Foreign Minister: Look, China's doing what great powers do, and great powers try to lift their influence and expand their influence in the region that they wish. I've described what's happening in the Pacific as a permanent contest. We're not going back to where we were, you know, 10 or 20 years ago. I think the opportunity to be the only partner of choice in the Pacific was lost under Scott Morrison and Peter Dutton. And now what we have to do is make sure we are a partner of choice and that we do do all we can to make sure we contribute to a stable region, a peaceful region and a region where the interests of Australia and the Pacific island nations such as Papua New Guinea or Samoa or Fiji, all of our interests in peace are respected.

Compton: Final question for you – we've got a minute left to news, appreciate you talking to us, Foreign Minister – are you still committed to the construction of nuclear submarines for Australia given the capability gap that we'll have while that happens between the Collins class going out, the nuclear subs coming in? Andrew Wilkie is in The Mercury newspaper today saying that this is a mistake, that diesel subs would be better, faster, cheaper and allow us to maintain more military independence.

Foreign Minister: Yeah, look, first, any submarines would be under Australian command. We've been very clear about that. The second point is obviously we would prefer not to be in this position, that we haven't had, three different submarine plans that were junked over time. We have addressed the capability gap. We think submarines are important. Very happy to discuss why they're important. It's obviously about, you know, changing the strategic calculous of the region. But ultimately everything we do, whether it's obtaining more deterrents or the work we do diplomatically, we're all about trying to ensure peace and stability for Australia.

Compton: Appreciate you talking with us this morning. Thank you.

Foreign Minister: Good to speak with you, Leon. Thanks for having me.