TV interview with Andrew Clennell, Sky News Sunday Agenda

Andrew Clennell, Host: Foreign Minister Penny Wong has been at the UN General Assembly this week calling for an immediate ceasefire in Lebanon and a deadline for the UN to declare Palestinian statehood.

Yesterday I spoke to the Foreign Minister after her big address to the UN in New York.

Penny Wong, thank you for your time. You've given a speech there in New York where you say Lebanon cannot become the next Gaza, but Benjamin Netanyahu's arrived in New York and said there's no ceasefire coming. He says we won't rest until our citizens return safely to our homes in northern Israel. He says we'll continue degrading Hizballah until all our objectives are attained. Are you shouting into the void here?

Penny Wong, Foreign Minister: We've joined with the United States, the United Kingdom, the European Union and many other countries to call for a ceasefire in Lebanon, and I would say to Israel, you know, we want you to listen to the international community.

It is true that Hizballah is a terrorist organisation, it is true that they have not been complying with UN Security Council Resolutions, but we see the horrific loss of life in Gaza, we see 11,000 children killed, you know, the world does not want to see more civilian deaths; we have to find a different way to deal with the legitimate issues of concern in relation to the border.

Clennell: He's not listening though, is he, no matter how many times you and even the US says it?

Foreign Minister: I can't speak for the government of Israel. What I can say to you is when you have a coalition of countries, which includes many historic friends and allies of Israel, making the same point, then that is a very clear demonstration of the will of the international community.

Clennell: Did you expect Israel to attack Hizballah in the manner it has? What is the end game to this conflict, including in Gaza, to the Israeli Government, do you think?

Foreign Minister: Well, this is a – that's a very good question, and what is the end game, and one of the points that we have made, and many others have made, that ultimately the end game should be peace and security in the region, peace and security for Israelis, peace and security for the people of Israel, and that will require a two‑state solution, that is the only pathway to long‑term peace and security for both Israelis and for Palestinians.

Clennell: Many, many leaders before you have attempted this, as you well know. It just doesn't look possible; I hate to say and ask you. So is there a way out of this without a two‑state solution because perhaps there has to be?

Foreign Minister: If there is, I don't think the international community is seeing it. We have 11,000 children who've been killed in Gaza, we have hostages who were taken by Hamas in the terrorist attack on Israel who are still being held, so you know, we have to work together as an international community, and that is what, you know, we have been trying to do this week saying that, you know, we have to come together, because ultimately the international community has to find a way to get on that pathway to peace, and it really comes down to the very simple proposition, Andrew, where is the long‑term security and peace for Israelis without a two‑state solution?

Clennell: What did you make of the coordinated pager attack that took place? Do you support Israel doing that to target the Hizballah leadership, or do you condemn it?

Foreign Minister: Well, I was asked about this, and obviously Hizballah is a terrorist organisation, and we understand the security position Israel is in.

Having said that, we've seen so much violence in the Middle East, and I talked tonight about that cycle of violence, the continued escalation, the continued retribution, that continued cycle of violence, and ultimately that will not bring peace and it will not bring security, which is why Australia and others, including the United States and the United Kingdom have called for a ceasefire in Lebanon and diplomacy to try and resolve this, because we have seen so many people, so many people die.

Clennell: You say retribution, Israel would say they're acting in self-defence. Would you accept that they're acting in self-defence at all?

Foreign Minister: One of the points I made in the speech tonight is that the international community has agreed rules, even in war there are rules, even when attacking terrorists there are rules, even when defending your borders there are rules, and we agreed them as an international community 75 years ago in the Geneva Conventions because we understood what it means when humanity goes into conflict with no rules. So Australia –

Clennell: So what rules do you think are implicit in that?

Foreign Minister: Well –

Clennell: Is it that you think Israel are breaking rules, isn't it; isn't that implicit in that statement? So what rules are being broken?

Foreign Minister: Ultimately the decision about whether international law is breached or not is a decision for international courts. But what I am saying and what the international community is saying is that civilians must be protected, aid workers must be protected, and you know, we are months, eleven months into this conflict. We've seen so many people killed, we've seen so many civilians have been lost, we've seen so many children who have been killed, and this is really a cycle of violence that we have to find a way out of.

Clennell: The government's spoken a lot about fears of a broader regional conflict, you've spoken of that. Is the big fear of a war between Iran and Israel?

Foreign Minister: I think there's a lot of points of regional escalation people have been worried about, obviously Lebanon is one, as you said, you know, Hizballah, which is a terrorist organisation and is an Iranian proxy, you know, there is always the risk of even further escalation.

We've been concerned about that for a long time, as have others in the international community, and we've been engaging with all the parties we can to urge de-escalation and restraint, and I know that sometimes it isn't popular in Australia, certainly with some of the Coalition to talk about restraint, but sometimes that is the only pathway to ensure you don't see more lives lost.

Clennell: Have you had an opportunity there to speak to Israeli and Lebanese, or indeed Iranian representatives, and if so what have been the nature of those conversations?

Foreign Minister: Yes, well, I haven't seen – I've engaged with the Foreign Minister of Israel, but he, I don't think he's been here. I have had a conversation with the Foreign Minister of Lebanon today. Obviously with the attacks on Beirut, they're very concerned, very worried, hoping that there can be – that conflict can be averted, very concerned about the situation, and you know, I expressed to him, you know, our desire to – for all parties to de-escalate, you know, we obviously know that it's important that the Lebanese Government urge Hizballah to de-escalate, to not engage in further violence and aggression.

I also expressed to him that, you know, we understood the humanitarian situation, and I have just authorised another couple of – $2 million in humanitarian relief to Lebanon.

Clennell: Do you think there's any aspect of the approach of Benjamin Netanyahu which is affected by the fact the US are about to go to an election and he thinks he may have a different administration to deal with?

Foreign Minister: You'll have to ask Prime Minister Netanyahu that.

Clennell: What's your belief?

Foreign Minister: Well, that's not a – that's an opinion that I think I'll leave to you and other commentators. I'm the Foreign Minister of Australia, and my job is to articulate our foreign policy and our position. That's what I've done tonight, and that's what I've done to Israel. I've said very clearly, no, we understand the circumstances of October 7, it was horrific, but from day one, we have said international humanitarian law matters, civilian lives matter, all lives have value.

Clennell: You've made comments once again supporting a Palestinian state just now. What's the government's position on the requirements for that? Would you have a requirement after the October 7 attacks that there would have to be a ban of Hamas membership of any government before that could occur, or do you think some remnants of that leadership could remain?

Foreign Minister: I've said that – well, I've said there is no place for terrorists in the future Palestinian government, and Hamas is a terrorist organisation. I've said that there has to be reform of the Palestinian Authority, but fundamentally, you'd have to ensure that any Palestinian state did not threaten the security and viability of Israel. The whole logic of two states, of a Palestinian state and an Israeli state is that there are sufficient security guarantees that both states can live, can exist side by side securely. That is the whole logic of two states.

Clennell: What's the status of a potential evacuation of Australians from Lebanon?

Foreign Minister: I'm very worried about Lebanon, as you know, Andrew. As you probably know I've been calling, advising Australians to leave I think since October. I have said very clearly this is – sorry, for some months, I should say. I've said very clearly, you know, we are worried about regional escalation, we have had do not travel for some time, for months now we have been saying please come home, we've done that over and over again, and the reason is we have so many Australians in Lebanon, and we are concerned about regional escalation, so I would again say to any Australian in Lebanon, please leave, please leave by whatever means are available whilst Beirut airport is still open.

Clennell: Peter Dutton has essentially said there's only one good side on this war and that's Israel, and we should be giving Israel all our support as a country. When he went to Israel he was left with the impression the administration was bemused Australia had not provided more support to it. What do you make of that view of Mr Dutton, because it creates a clear partisan difference on Foreign Affairs, doesn't it?

Foreign Minister: Well, I think our support for the existence of the state of Israel, which is bipartisan, does not mean we walk away from supporting international humanitarian law. It does not mean we don't say each civilian should be protected. I mean Mr Dutton should remember Australia is, you know, we're a country that prides ourself on our respect for the rule of law, and that has to apply internationally as well, and that is why it is appropriate for Australia to talk about the need to protect civilians.

Clennell: The US this week said they were banning certain Chinese electric vehicles from their country because they could be remotely operated in a war situation. Chris Bowen said at the moment we're not going to do the same. Have you had any advice in relation to this, what's behind our stance on this?

Foreign Minister: Well, look, we will continue to discuss this with the United States, we will continue to take advice from our security agencies about this and about all other matters.

Clennell: You called Vladimir Putin a coward in your speech for using the veto of the Security Council to protect his illegal actions in Ukraine. You want reform of the UN Security Council, is that maybe too ambitious?

Foreign Minister: Well, I do think it's an act of a coward to use a veto to avoid, you know, your responsibility, and you know, the extraordinary thing, the really immoral thing about what Russia is doing, apart from their illegal and immoral invasion of Ukraine, is the use of a veto that the international community gave them in order to protect the UN Charter, in order to protect international law and the sovereignty of all nations is being used by this man to protect himself as he breaches that law, right, and I think that is cowardly.

You know, we continue to stand with Ukraine in the defence of their sovereignty.

Clennell: So Donald Trump just met President Zelenskyy and said that if he's elected there will be a peace deal soon, and he has good relations with both Putin and Zelenskyy. What do you make of that?

Foreign Minister: Well, you know, we all would hope for peace on terms that are satisfactory to Ukraine.

Clennell: Just finally, you're on the Expenditure Review Committee of Cabinet, one of the key leaders of the government. Has there been in recent months any discussions that the government could take a policy to alter negative gearing to an election; is this something the Treasurer and or Housing Minister are interested in?

Foreign Minister: That's a good try, Andrew, but you know, you know, we don't discuss what happens in Cabinet, and what I would say is what I've said publicly, we don't have any plans in relation to negative gearing. What we do want to do though is increase the supply of housing, and that's what we're trying to do.

Clennell: Foreign Minister Penny Wong in New York. Thanks so much for your time.

Foreign Minister: Good to speak with you, Andrew.