TV interview, ABC Afternoon Briefing with Patricia Karvelas

Patricia Karvelas, Host: Minister, welcome to the program.

Penny Wong, Foreign Minister: Good to be with you, PK.

Karvelas: Some breaking news, Minister, this afternoon - commercial pilots we are reporting, have been warned of a potential hazard in airspace between Australia and New Zealand, where three Chinese warships are conducting military exercises. Do you have any information to share regarding what is happening here?

Foreign Minister: This is a Chinese task group that the Deputy Prime Minister has previously spoken about. We are aware of this task group. We are monitoring this task group very closely. It is, as I understand it, operating in international waters. We will be discussing this with the Chinese and we already have at officials’ level, in relation to the notice given and the transparency that is being provided in relation to these exercises, particularly the live fire exercises.

Karvelas: Can you tell us why Airservices are telling commercial pilots not to fly over the area?

Foreign Minister: Well, obviously this is an evolving situation, but it would be normal practice where a task group is engaging in exercises for there to be advice given to vessels and aircraft in the area, and Airservices is doing what it should do, which is to give that advice.

Karvelas: And is there a fear of live fire and how that may affect these commercial flights? Is that, just for our viewers who perhaps don't understand how these military exercises work, is that what would be exercising the minds of Airservices Australia?

Foreign Minister: Well, obviously, as I said, this is an evolving situation, but I can talk to you about what the practice is. The practice is that countries, including Australia and others, can conduct military exercises in international waters. The advice to me is that this is what China is doing. When they do conduct those exercises, obviously notice is provided to ensure - that is available to anyone in the area, and that is what Airservices is doing. We do have concerns about the transparency associated with this and the notice, and I certainly will be having a discussion with Foreign Minister Wang about that.

Karvelas: What will you raise with the Foreign Minister when you meet?

Foreign Minister: There are many issues that I regularly raise in bilaterals with Foreign Minister Wang. You would anticipate I will cover those, and I will be very clear with him about some of the issues you and I have spoken about, PK.

Karvelas: Will you press the Foreign Minister and Chinese officials to be more transparent about what this naval task force is doing and also where it is going?

Foreign Minister: What I would say is that China is operating in international waters, just as Australia and other countries operate in international waters. We always express that all countries should comply with the UN Convention are the Law of the Sea - and that is what we will always be articulating to China and to all others who utilise the maritime commons.

Karvelas: Some analysts have called this a deliberate show of force by China, which wants to demonstrate it can now easily project power into the Tasman, the South Pacific. Is that a fair assessment?

Foreign Minister: I think that is a commentary piece that you probably should speak to a commentator about. As the Foreign Minister, what I need to articulate is Australia's interest and Australia's interests are in transparency and the observance of international law including the law of the sea. That is what we always articulate, for example, in relation to the South China Sea.

Karvelas: New Zealand’s Defence Minister, Judith Collins, says the task force is a wake-up call for her country and should remind its citizens their geographical isolation no longer offers protection. Does that apply to Australia as well? Are you concerned that our geographic location also doesn’t protect us and that we need to actually be more aware of this threat?

Foreign Minister: Well, they’re your words, not mine. What I would say is the government is very clear about the importance of Australia having the strategic and military capability to enable both deterrence and assurance. And you've seen, whether it's through AUKUS or the work that Minister Marles has done, the importance the Government places on making sure the Australian Defence Force is appropriately equipped to enable deterrence. And why do we want deterrence? Because that is central to stability. You need both deterrence and assurance to enable and promote stability and peace in the region.

Karvelas: Minister, in terms of Airservices and their diversion of commercial planes, how long should we expect this will go on for? Is that something you will seek clarity for, from the Chinese?

Foreign Minister: Well, I don't have any advice about that, but that is ultimately a matter for Airservices to determine, the notice they need to give to vessels and aircraft.

Karvelas: I want to change the topic if I can, Minister, to another foreign issue that has been of course, huge, and there is an anniversary coming up, which makes it very pivotal, I think. President Trump has referred to Zelenskyy as a dictator. Does that language alarm you?

Foreign Minister: Well, I don't believe he is. What I've said very clearly for many years now, is Russia is the aggressor here. Russia is engaged in an illegal and immoral war against Ukraine, contravened the UN Charter as a permanent member of the Security Council, used its veto to protect itself so it could continue to conduct this war. 

We stand very firmly in solidarity with the people of Ukraine. I had the opportunity to briefly meet President Zelenskyy when I was in Poland recently, and I made very clear to him that we, the people of Australia, the country of Australia, continues to stand with him and the people of Ukraine in their struggle for their sovereignty. 

Karvelas: Minister, are you concerned that the US is refusing to co-sponsor a draft UN resolution that demands Russia withdraw its troops?

Foreign Minister: Well, the US can make its decisions, and it can articulate the reasons for it, what I will say to you is what our position is, and I've outlined it.

Karvelas: Yesterday I spoke to former Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull, and he told me we can't assume we can rely on America anymore, that this is quite a dramatic shift in geopolitical positioning. Is that right? We can't rely on America anymore?

Foreign Minister: America has been Australia's principal strategic partner and strategic ally for many decades, and that alliance has stood the test of time, and it has stood the test of political change. It's an alliance which has been, and a relationship, which has been fostered by and carried by administrations and governments of both political persuasions. 

It is the case that President Trump is charting a very different course - and he said he would, and we should expect that - but we should also have some confidence in our capacity to navigate that. I was very pleased to and honoured to be the first Australian Foreign Minister to be invited to a presidential inauguration. I was very pleased to have the opportunity so early on in the Trump Administration to engage with my counterpart, Secretary Marco Rubio, and also National Security Advisor Waltz. Deputy Prime Minister Marles has also been and engaged with his counterpart. So, this is a very deep relationship. It's a relationship where there is a lot of engagement, and it's a relationship which is important to both countries. 

Karvelas: I understand that the Russian Foreign Minister is also attending the meeting of Foreign Ministers, where you are. Have you spoken to him and raised the issue in relation to Oscar Jenkins?

Foreign Minister: As you know, Patricia, we have discontinued engagement, or halted engagement with Russian officials at senior levels since the invasion of Ukraine. I did, however, make an exception for that yesterday, because I wanted to express very clearly to Mr Lavrov the importance of Oscar Jenkins’ condition. I expressed to him the importance we associate with Mr Jenkins being treated appropriately, and Russia complying with its international legal obligations. 

Karvelas: And what response did you get? I mean, are you getting any opening in terms of what we might be able to do to get Oscar Jenkins back?

Foreign Minister: Well, obviously I'm not going to disclose more than is in Mr Jenkins' interest, but I can say to you very clearly that Mr Lavrov understood that our view was that Mr Jenkins needed to be treated appropriately and Russia needed to comply with its international legal obligations.

Karvelas: Did you shirtfront him?

Foreign Minister: Well, I think that's a Tony Abbott term. I spoke to him, as you would expect, I would speak to him on such a matter.

Karvelas: OK, you used the Penny Wong method, I understand. 

Just finally, Minister, I understand, before I let you go, on Israel, are you concerned over the behaviour exhibited by Hamas, parading the bodies of these dead hostages, and are worried about one of the bodies was incorrectly returned - it is obviously incredibly, a very difficult time, especially the implications for the ceasefire?

Foreign Minister: First, I condemn unequivocally the way in which Hamas dealt with this. It was a sickening and cruel way to deal with the return of these two young children, the bodies of two young children. So, I would just express my condolences and sympathy to the families. 

In relation to the ceasefire, we obviously continue, as so many countries do around the world, to urge all parties to comply with the ceasefire, including the return of hostages.

Karvelas: Foreign Minister, thank you so much for joining us.

Foreign Minister: Good to speak with you, Patricia.