Interview with Sarah Ferguson, ABC 7.30

Sarah Ferguson, Host: After nearly a year of conflict in Gaza, there are now fears the situation in southern Lebanon could destabilise the entire Middle East. Israel’s heavy bombardment beginning on Monday targeting Hezbollah is believed to have killed 569 people. Today, Hezbollah fired a ballistic missile towards Tel Aviv. The missile was intercepted. The escalation comes as global leaders gathered in New York for the UN General Assembly, where Secretary-General António Guterres warned Lebanon is at the brink. Foreign Minister Penny Wong was at the meeting in New York. She joined me earlier. Penny Wong, welcome to 7.30.

Penny Wong, Foreign Minister: Good to be with you.

Ferguson: Now, following this week's escalation in Lebanon, can you start by describing the atmosphere at the UN?

Foreign Minister: First, in relation to Lebanon, can I say to your audience, I know there are so many people in Australia who have relatives, friends and family in Lebanon and this is obviously a very stressful situation for them. In terms of how things are here in the United Nations, many countries have been working to try and ensure there is no regional escalation of the conflict in Gaza, and their people are concerned, as you would have, as you would know from what the Secretary-General said to the General Assembly today about the prospect for more loss of civilian life in Lebanon.

Ferguson: Are Israel's attacks in Lebanon legitimate acts of self-defence?

Foreign Minister: What I'd say is this. There is no doubt that Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation and there is no doubt that Hezbollah has been engaging in attacks on Israel and has breached international law. Even in law, even in war, however, there are rules and as you know, international humanitarian law applies to all conflicts, even when engaging a terrorist actor. However, what I would say is our advocacy at the moment, like so many others here in New York, is aimed at trying to avert a regional escalation because of what that would mean for Israel and for the people of the region, including the people of Lebanon. Our advocacy is to try and avert further civilian casualties.

Ferguson: Now, would a ceasefire, however elusive that is at the moment, would a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas in Gaza halt further escalation in Lebanon? Or do you fear that the course is now set between Israel and Hezbollah?

Foreign Minister: Whatever people's views about those hypotheticals, a ceasefire is necessary. I mean, we see what has happened in Gaza. We see the civilian toll. We see that so many tens of thousands of civilians have been killed. We see how many children have been lost. So, we would continue to back in the UN Security Council's resolution. It's called for a ceasefire. We will continue to urge all parties, as President Biden did today, to agree to that ceasefire.

Ferguson: Do you think the international community has learnt anything from the enormous civilian destruction during the war in Gaza?

Foreign Minister: It has been, I think, quite distressing and, frankly, catastrophic. Horrific for so many around the world. It has been deeply distressing. I hope that what this will do is bring more countries together to galvanise commitment to and compliance with international humanitarian law. That's my motivation behind the initiative that I launched yesterday alongside many other countries from around the world. A commitment to work together for the protection of humanitarian workers.

As you probably know, Sarah, you know, this has been the worst year so far on record in terms of the deaths of humanitarian workers, aid workers, of course, one of them Australian Zomi Frankcom. Gaza is the most dangerous place on Earth to be an aid worker. So, we have brought countries together to say whether it's in Sudan, whether it's in Yemen, whether it's in Myanmar or Gaza, we are committed to trying to galvanise greater commitment to and compliance with international humanitarian law, particularly in respect of aid workers, because you can't assist civilians in conflict zones unless aid workers are protected.

Ferguson: You're doing this in the name of Australian Zomi Frankcom. The Israeli Military Advocate General is still considering whether to pursue that case further. Do you trust the Israeli system?

Foreign Minister: We do want to see full transparency and accountability. We will be watching very closely the work of the Military Advocate General. Obviously, we want to see that report when it is finalised, we want to see those decisions made. And we, again, would be looking to the Israeli Defence Force, which has acknowledged and taken responsibility for those deaths of Zomi Frankcom and her fellow workers from World Central Kitchen. We would be looking for full transparency in relation to any findings.

Ferguson: Does full transparency include releasing the audio of the drone footage of the killing, which the family hasn't had access to?

Foreign Minister: The family has called for that and I have expressed that to the Israeli government, and I've expressed the view that in the circumstances, obviously we would ask that the Israeli government, we would seek that the Israeli government respond positively to Zomi Frankcom’s family's requests.

Ferguson: Have you had any response from the Israelis about that audio?

Foreign Minister: Not at my level as yet, no.

Ferguson: I just want to go back to last week's UN vote demanding Israel withdraw from the Occupied Palestinian Territories. You said that the resolution went too far in its demands. What were the specific obstacles from Australia's point of view?

Foreign Minister: I would say two things. One is our preference would have been to support a resolution that was consonant with and consistent with the ICJ advisory opinion, the International Court of Justice advisory opinion. Obviously, the advice to me was that the language went further than we would have liked. We engaged with many other like-mindeds to try and get the sorts of amendments that we would have liked. We'll keep working through the UN with, obviously, the Palestinian delegation and other like-mindeds because we do want to give effect to a two-state solution. We do want to add our voice to a pathway to peace, and we know that this will only be resolved, the conflict in the Middle East will only be resolved, and we will only see security for both Palestinians and Israelis, if we see two states, as was envisioned by the UN when Israel was established.

Ferguson: Were the sticking points the issues of land restitution and compensation for Palestinians?

Foreign Minister: Well, there were a number of issues in that resolution which did go, and I think you've picked a couple of them, to final status issues, issues which obviously still would require resolution, even if there can be progress on two states. But I think the broader point is we do support two states. We have taken action which is consistent with our position. Those actions have included our position on settlements, those actions have included sanctions on extremist settlers, and those actions have included the votes you've seen in the United Nations.

Ferguson: In Australia, you've been accused of lacking moral courage. Do those words hurt?

Foreign Minister: I've been accused of many things on both sides and as people say things in the street, I get criticism from both sides. The approach I've tried to take in this, Sarah, as the Foreign Minister of Australia, is to try to think very carefully about what is the principle position Australia should take and try to act in accordance with that, and that's what I will always do.

Ferguson: You've had a meeting today with your Chinese counterpart. Did you discuss Australia's role in the Quad?

Foreign Minister: I had a meeting with Foreign Minister Wang Yi. Obviously, we've had quite a number of meetings over the last few years and we discussed multilateral issues, so, United Nations issues, we discussed bilateral issues and we discussed international issues. Obviously, China is very aware of our role, our membership of the Quad and our engagement in that. That was one of the issues that was raised, there were many other issues raised as well.

Ferguson: Now, just while it pains always to stress the appearance of good relations with China, the Albanese government has committed to much deeper involvement with US military strategy to counter China. How does that, how does that latter position reflect Labor values?

Foreign Minister: Well, I think Labor values are first to work for peace, stability and prosperity. I think Labor values are to recognise we work in the Alliance, we work in the region, and we work through the rules to assure peace and stability, and that's what we are doing. Our position as a government to work with the United States, to work with Japan, to work with ASEAN, and to work in the multilateral system as well as to engage with China is all about assuring Australia's place in the world and trying to ensure that we, our children, grow up in a region which has the same sorts of attributes that we have had, we've been privileged to have for most of our lives there.

Ferguson: Think that the Australian public wants a much deeper involvement in US military strategy?

Foreign Minister: I think the Australian public want peace and stability, and that's what we're seeking to do, and I would make the point if the reference is AUKUS and the involvement with the United States, Australia has a very clear framework in relation to our sovereignty, and that matters. But so too, what matters is the objective that we seek to bring to, as I said, the alliance to the region and the rules, which is peace and stability and shared prosperity.

Ferguson: Penny Wong, thank you very much indeed for joining us.

Foreign Minister: Good to speak with you.