Interview with Jack Tame, TVNZ

Jack Tame, Host: Minister, welcome to New Zealand and thank you very much for your company.

Penny Wong, Foreign Minister: Good to be here.

Jack Tame: New Zealand's Labor Party has ruled out joining AUKUS Pillar II. What do you make of that decision?

Foreign Minister: Well, you know, these are the decisions for the government of the day in New Zealand. As you know, AUKUS is a technology-sharing arrangement when it comes to Pillar II, and it's entirely up to New Zealand whether it wants to engage on it. But there is a broader issue that we are obviously responding to, which is the reshaping of the region, and how we all respond to the fact that the region is being reshaped.

Jack Tame: What do you think will be the consequences if New Zealand does not join Pillar II?

Foreign Minister: Oh, look, I think those are decisions for New Zealand. Each country responds in the way it sees fit. The broader point I'd make is that certainly in the Pacific, we are in a state of permanent contest. We know the Pacific is a much more contested area strategically than it has been for a very, very long time, and you can either be an observer of that reshaping, or you can be a participant. I think that those are words that Winston Peters, Foreign Minister Peters has used, and like Australia, wants to be part of responding to that reshaping, and we certainly welcome the New Zealand Government's engagement.

Jack Tame: I know your Labor Party has pretty close personal connections with the Labor Party in New Zealand. Did you have a heads up, did you have any warning they would make that announcement?

Foreign Minister: We deal with the government of the day, obviously we do know people well in the Labor Party here, but obviously on these sorts of issues, we deal with the government of the day, and as I said these are ultimately matters for the government and the people of New Zealand.

Jack Tame: So you had the personal connections. Just to be clear though, did you have any warning they would make that announcement?

Foreign Minister: I'm not going to ‑ we deal with the government of the day.

Jack Tame: Do you think New Zealand ultimately faces a binary decision?

Foreign Minister: Between what and what?

Jack Tame: Between our biggest trading partner, maintaining a relationship with China, and our security interests in the region?

Foreign Minister: Look, I said to Australians in the context of the election where we were elected, I said, look, there was a time where you could separate your strategic and your economic relationships, and we've all done that. I mean our biggest trading partner is China. But I think that time is past and we have to look at what is occurring in the region, we have to look at what China is seeking to do, we have to work out how you engage with a great power that has made its intentions clear. As great powers do, they seek to press their interests, and they seek to influence the region in which they live. And that is what great powers do, it's what China is doing. We've taken a lot of steps to stabilise the relationship with China, recognising they are our largest trading partner, but we are very realistic about it. There are things on which we are not going to agree. There are areas where we have differences, and you can't wish those away. You have to think about how you navigate the differences in our relationship.

Jack Tame: Does Australia want New Zealand to be part of Pillar II?

Foreign Minister: I think Australia wants New Zealand to do what it does so well, which is to be an active part of the Pacific family. We really welcome New Zealand's engagement in the Pacific Islands Forum, and all of its members in that region, and you have a very important and special role to play in that region.

Jack Tame: In the context of Pillar II, what does playing an active part in the Pacific mean ‑‑

Foreign Minister: Well, leave Pillar II aside, that is one of the ways you can engage. But you know, for example, it's clear that China has worked and is working quite hard to establish a strong security presence in the Pacific. That's a matter for them. We think that stability and peace are best preserved by the Pacific family taking responsibility for Pacific security. Now you've got a key role in that, and we want to keep working with New Zealand and your Government, as we are, in ensuring we step up in terms of Pacific security.

Jack Tame: Does the United States under a President Trump make it a less reliable security partner in the Indo‑Pacific?

Foreign Minister: Look, President Trump has been very clear he wants to change how America is in the world and at home. He is a candidate for change, so we shouldn't be surprised if there is change. I have made the comment I think we should have some confidence in our ability to navigate that. We need to be clear about what our interests are and how we press for them. And obviously we have a very long‑standing deep relationship, a long‑standing security alliance with the United States, and that remains.

Jack Tame: What changes do you anticipate under his Presidency when it comes to security in the Indo-Pacific?

Foreign Minister: I'm going to leave that commentary to you.

Jack Tame: Do you accept that in the eyes of some, the volatility that comes with President Trump's language, if not his leadership, means that making a decision to support something like AUKUS Pillar II from New Zealand's perspective is perhaps less attractive than it might have been under a different leadership?

Foreign Minister: I think it's important to remember what Pillar II is. So Pillar I is the replacement of an existing submarine capability that Australia needs to replace. Pillar II is technology‑sharing, project by project. It's not an alliance, it's not a treaty. It's countries saying, "We are all working on these particular technologies in the security space and we will collaborate on them". So, I think it's important to recognise what Pillar II is and what it is not.

Jack Tame: Our former Defence Minister Andrew Little intimated he feels the AUKUS process has been irreparably waylaid, it hadn't passed through Congress, we’re still waiting for it to achieve much progress in his view. What would be your response?

Foreign Minister: I don't think that's grounded in fact. I mean, I think if you look at what has gone through the Congress during the Biden Administration, and we’ve worked very hard at that, and as our Ambassador in Washington, there's been a lot of progress made on a bipartisan basis in terms of legislative changes that needed to happen to enable Pillar I to be operationalised.

Jack Tame: During this year, your Government re-adjusted its 501s policy to take a more hardline approach in deporting people who have committed serious crimes. How is it in the spirit of being a responsible international player to deport criminals who have spent the vast majority of their lives in Australia and have no connections to the place they're being sent to?

Foreign Minister: Well, each government will obviously look to assure the security of its people, and you know, Australia's doing that. But also, we are seeking to do that in a sensible way, in a commonsense way, including taking into account the sorts of factors in the hypothetical you just put to me, but obviously, the security of the Australian community is an important factor for a Minister to consider.

Jack Tame: It's not hypothetical when it comes to 501s ‑‑

Foreign Minister: No, the way you phrased the question.

Jack Tame: There are many examples of people who have moved to Australia at the age of two and have been deported back to New Zealand in their fifties with no connections to New Zealand whatsoever. Is that in the spirit of being a responsible international player?

Foreign Minister: All I can say is this has been a subject of discussion between our Prime Ministers. We indicated the position we would take, we said we would obviously, the ministerial power has been adjusted but we would still take a commonsense approach.

Jack Tame: Stats obtained here in New Zealand in the official Information Act by our One News Australia correspondent, Aziz Al-Sa'afin, shows that more than 60 per cent of the 501s that have been deported to New Zealand reoffend. So, since the policy was introduced in 2015, there have been thousands of violent offences and hundreds of sexual offences from 501 deportees in New Zealand. Experts say the trauma of splitting up families and deporting people contributes to those high re-offending rates. What kind of country does that to one of its closest friends and allies?

Foreign Minister: I appreciate this is a sensitive issue in New Zealand and this has been obviously a topic under previous governments as well, and we’ve sought to make sensible adjustments, commonsense adjustments, whilst maintaining the importance and the primacy of the security of Australians. I understand that’s not something that you might agree with but obviously the government of the day in Australia has to take what we see as the responsible approach.

Jack Tame: When it comes to security in the Pacific, climate change is far and away the most important security concern for many Pacific nations. Australia is one of the world's largest exporters of coal, I think about $140 billion last year, and ministers from your party have recently approved coal mine expansion. How does that serve your credibility when it comes to climate change in Pacific nations?

Foreign Minister: Well, you’re right, first that the climate change is the number one priority of the people of the Pacific, and that has been made clear by leaders in multiple leaders’ declarations. And I was Australia's first Climate Minister, and we have worked very hard to elevate Pacific voices in the international negotiations. I am upfront with them; I've said look we have come to government at a time where we had very low levels of renewable energy in our grid, we want to shift from those very low levels to 82% by 2030, 82% renewables by 2030. We have very ambitious targets, it takes a lot to transition our economy. We have been a resource-based economy. Ah, now we have to shift that resources-based economy into an economy that can prosper in the net zero world, and it's what the Government is seeking to do.

Jack Tame: You’re talking about your domestic energy, you see, I’m talk about the $140 billion in coal exports.

Foreign Minister: Yeah, well, and what I would say to you is you consider the time what the International Energy Agency says will happen to coal consumption. Our responsibility is under the conference of the, under the UNFCCC, the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change to deal with our emissions domestically and we’re seeking to do that. We also are seeking to develop our capacity as a renewable energy superpower, so we want to, we want to be an energy exporter to the world, and we, over time to transition to renewable energy, which is why we are funding hydrogen, it's why we are looking at, I just came from Singapore, how do we get solar energy into Southeast Asia, in particular Singapore. So, we are putting a lot of work into that and we will continue to do that. If we could flick a switch and transition all of our energy across the world to renewables, I think people would do that. That is not the world in which we live. We have to build an energy system globally, which is not predicated on fossil fuels and that will take time.

Jack Tame: I know you're very busy. We very much appreciate you speaking to us. Thank you.

Foreign Minister: Yeah, good to speak with you.