ABC Melbourne Drive with Ali Moore

ALI MOORE, HOST: Senator Penny Wong is Australia's Foreign Minister. Foreign Minister, welcome to Drive.

PENNY WONG, FOREIGN MINISTER: Good to be with you, Ali.

MOORE: Do you consider this an historic day?

FOREIGN MINISTER: Look, we certainly welcome the ceasefire. We welcome the ceasefire and the agreement in relation to hostages. And we urge all the parties to implement in full this agreement, all phases of this agreement. This is consistent with what the international community has been calling for for months. It's a call that, as you know, Australia has joined for ceasefire, for the release of hostages and for humanitarian aid to flow. It is also, Ali, the ceasefire that Peter Dutton has opposed. He opposed the fact that the Government joined those international calls. I think it's very clear that the international community, the work of President Biden and his administration and the work of the incoming President Trump and his administration has led to a very important, historic day.

MOORE: Are you confident that it will be ratified by the Israeli Cabinet? There are still some hoops for this to go through before the first phase is underway.

FOREIGN MINISTER: Look, I think after 15 months of what we've seen, obviously, you know, we know there are risks, we know that the parties have got close to this point, have even got partway down this road before. But I certainly am fortified in my views because we see such clear language from both the Biden Administration and the incoming Trump Administration, both of which were involved in this agreement. And I think that says something about the momentum and impetus towards ensuring that this is implemented.

MOORE: And in fact, how much do you attribute this and the momentum to the Trump effect? The fear of what Donald Trump will do once he's back in the presidency? I mean, he first warned back in December that there'd be all hell to pay in the Middle East if Israeli hostages in Gaza weren't freed before his inauguration. How much of what's happened do you think is because of the Trump effect?

FOREIGN MINISTER: Well, he certainly, President Trump has demonstrated his capacity to advance the building of peace and security in the region when he was previously in the presidency, through normalising relations with the countries of the region. So, we know that he is a President who has been very focused previously and in more recent times on bringing a more peaceful strategic structure, more peace and stability to the Middle East. And that is a good thing.

MOORE: What does a post-war Gaza look like. And I, you know, of course we're jumping ahead here. There are further stages. It's the final stage yet to be negotiated, that would be a reconstruction of Gaza. But what, just in a practical sense, who's in charge? Who rebuilds? What happens to Hamas?

FOREIGN MINISTER: Well, I mean, there is no place for a terrorist organisation such as Hamas in the future governance of Gaza. I mean, the fundamental principle has to be that both Israelis and Palestinians can live in peace, that both Israelis and Palestinians can have secure borders, that have been agreed. And it is a matter for the parties, but also the international community to build those long-term arrangements which enable peace and security for both peoples.

MOORE: So, to go back to the question, who would be in charge of the rebuild?

FOREIGN MINISTER: Well, I think these are matters that the regional players and the United States will have to consider how it is that the next phases are implemented. But I think it is important to recognise there is a momentum that is associated with the ceasefire and it's incumbent upon all of the international community to utilise that momentum for long term peace. We've seen, 15 months since the horrific attacks of October 7th, we've seen what has occurred. We've seen not only those horrific attacks and the hostage taking and the atrocities which occurred, we've subsequently seen a conflict which has taken so many lives. So, we all need to put a premium on working together for a more stable arrangement in the Middle East, more security. And certainly, that's something the Trump Administration have demonstrated previously, a capacity to advance. And I'm confident we'll continue to focus on this. And I think there's also an opportunity here, if I may say. Ali, we've seen this has been a conflict which unfortunately has been reproduced here to some extent. That's not what we want in Australia. So, I would urge both Peter Dutton and Mr Bandt to take the opportunity to turn the temperature down because there has been a cost to Australia's cohesion.

MOORE: Would Australia take part in a peacekeeping force if that was requested?

FOREIGN MINISTER: Well, that hasn't been requested of us and I think I'm not going to respond to sort of hypotheticals in that way.

MOORE: So, what do you think if a ceasefire does hold, if it does start on Sunday, if it, you know, there are, obviously there are some precarious things about it, but if it does go ahead, what do you think it will mean for this country?

FOREIGN MINISTER: That is, I think that's a very important question and I'm sure on your program and in many contexts in our community, we know that this conflict has been deeply distressing, as well as deeply divisive in our community. People have strong views, they have strongly held, different views. And we have lost some of our capacity to disagree respectfully. I hope that this ceasefire is an opportunity for us to lower the temperature and I again repeat, political leaders have a role in that. I know Mr Dutton thinks there's benefit in making some politics here in Australia, reproducing the conflict here. I know Mr Bandt thinks there is benefit in that. I don't think it benefits the Australian community.

MOORE: I guess though you have just raised two other political leaders, you could have left the other politicians out of this conversation altogether.

FOREIGN MINISTER: That's true and I do so because I think it's very clear from what they have said, and what they have done, that they have not been advocates for cohesion, they have not been advocates for unity. They've been advocates about either side of the conflict and I don't think that's been helpful to us.

MOORE: Do you think that the war in Gaza has changed how people here will vote? There are some views being expressed earlier today on 774 about the impact politically of this war. Do you agree?

FOREIGN MINISTER: I certainly know from what both Mr Dutton, Mr Bandt and their parties have said that they think this has an effect on votes. I'll be very honest, open and honest with you, Ali. When I make decisions or give advice to the Cabinet about foreign policy, I try to look very clearly at what I think is the principled position, what is consistent with Australia's principles and Australia's interests. And that's how we've approached this conflict. Now, that hasn't pleased either side at times. But I don't think this is a situation where absolutism has been helpful to either the debate or to social cohesion.

MOORE: We spoke yesterday on Drive to Jillian Segal, the Australian envoy for combatting antisemitism, and you'll be well aware she wrote an op-ed yesterday and talked very much about how she felt that the justice system is not doing the right and that there should be stronger penalties for crimes, for antisemitic crimes. I know this is not exactly in your purview, but it is obviously of interest to you. Do you think she's right?

FOREIGN MINISTER: I agree with Jillian very strongly when she articulates the way in which the antisemitic language, attacks, what we've seen, the attacks on synagogues, the attacks on places of worship, as well as the graffiti and all of the vile language we've seen. I agree with her very strongly that this is an attack not just on the Jewish community, but on who we are.

MOORE: But do you agree the justice system is being too lenient?

FOREIGN MINISTER: Look, I always think it's difficult for politicians to comment on the courts, but I do think it's important - and I know magistrates and judges, they look at what's before them - I think it's important for all of us to remember the context in which some of these events occur and the way in which they bring fear to not just their targets, but to a broader Australian, part of the Australian community. And I think it's important that all of us say this sort of antisemitism, all forms of prejudice, they are contrary not only and dangerous to what we believe as Australians. And I'm always happy to stand with those who are advocating for inclusion and for respect, which are fundamental to a multicultural society.

MOORE: And to that end, Jillian Segal has called for a National Cabinet meeting to be held when everyone is back in the office. And what she'd like to see is government initiated sentencing guidelines - guidelines. And she acknowledges, obviously that you can't direct the judiciary as to what to do. But her point is an overlay of an offence of hate over the specific crimes of vandalism and graffiti or whatever they are. Would you support sentencing guidelines?

FOREIGN MINISTER: Well, as you quite rightly pointed out, that's not a matter, that's a matter for State Governments and Territory Governments. But I think the principle, which is to understand that hate motivation, hate crimes have a particular weight in the community, have a particular weight, is a sound one. And I think that, I know that, for example, sometimes our political opponents, the Coalition, have argued for untrammelled free speech. I've always taken the view that speech which vilifies, speech which is hate filled is not something in our society that we should be tolerating. So, I think that the point of, what is the context, what is the intention and what is the effect - that is relevant. Obviously that's something courts and magistrates will have to consider.

MOORE: You're listening to Senator Penny Wong, Foreign Minister of Australia. Another story, Senator Wong, Australian officials have been trying to verify those reports around Oscar Jenkins, who reportedly has been killed by Russian forces in Ukraine. Have you got confirmation of that?

FOREIGN MINISTER: Look, I'm not in a position to verify Mr Jenkins’ circumstances nor his whereabouts, obviously. We do continue to hold grave concerns about his welfare. We are seeking, verifying information in the war zone is pretty challenging and I think it is taking some time for us to be able to learn exactly the details of his whereabouts and his condition. I would say, I have asked my friend and counterpart, the Foreign Minister of Ukraine. We had an exchange over the last 48 hours where I expressed to him, a request that at the highest levels that there be a real priority given to Mr Jenkins’ case. We know that obviously the Ukrainians are probably best placed to give us sound information. We know the Russians can give us information, but it is often, we also know the Russian propensity to not giving information or giving incorrect information. So, you know, while we are pursuing both, engagement with Russia, putting our views very strongly about their obligations to observe international law when it comes to prisoners of war, but we are also working through Ukraine to try and ascertain information about Mr Jenkins.

MOORE: Will you expel the Russian ambassador?

FOREIGN MINISTER: I will wait till we have all the facts. What I would say is what I said a couple of days ago - it might have been yesterday - all options are on the table.

MOORE: Senator Penny Wong, thank you so much for making the time to join us this afternoon.

FOREIGN MINISTER: Really good to speak with you. Thanks very much.