Interview with Graham Richardson - Sky News

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: Welcometo Richo for tonight. I apologise forbeing a little late but things haven't been too good. But it wouldn't matterhow bad things got, how could you miss the opportunity of talking to theForeign Minister Julie Bishop? Here she is with me tonight. Welcome Julie.

JULIEBISHOP: Thankyou Graham. Delighted to be with you.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: Well, I'm really glad I couldget here at all. Now can we start with Thailand because obviously you can'tpick up a newspaper or listen to the radio, watch a television or look atsocial media without knowing about it and I don't want to talk about Australianheroes, it's been a massive international effort. And the Thais I think haveperformed brilliantly. Don't you think, really they have done a great job themselves?

JULIEBISHOP: They deserve great creditfor showing brilliant leadership on what is one of the most complex caverescues that the world has ever seen. I understand that the logistics, theplanning, the sheer complexity of it was overwhelming at several stages throughoutthe operation, but nevertheless, under the guidance of the Thai Navy SEALs theybrought together an international team. They recognised when they needed moreexperts and that's how Australia's Dr Richard Harris became involved. The Thaisrecognised when they needed more divers, when they needed more rescue teams,they put together this international coalition from the United States, fromGreat Britain, from China and from Australia. There were civilian divers,volunteers, but also professional divers and defence force and police divers.So overall it was an extraordinary international effort.

I did speak to Foreign Minister Don, the Thai Foreign Minister earliertoday, and he thanked Australia and he did say it was an example of when theinternational community comes together they can achieve a miracle. And think ofthose 12 young boys it must havebeen…

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: I think all of us have beenthinking of them night after night. And the thing that struck me is that rarelydoes an event attract the world attention this one has. It didn't matter whereyou lived in the world you knew about those 12 boys.

JULIEBISHOP: Well, absolutely. Ithad everything. It was so dramatic and what a harrowing experience. Twelveyoung boys and their coach trapped in a cave..

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: None of whom could swim.

JULIEBISHOP: They couldn't swim,they couldn't dive, it was dark, cold, water was rushing in, it was monsoonseason. It must have been absolutely terrifying for them. I guess the focuswill now be on their physical and mental wellbeing. They're still in hospital,I'm sure they're fine, but you think long term. This has been a harrowingexperience for them and their families.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON I think just the 3.2kilometres or whatever it is getting out would be impossible. I couldn't do itso I don't know how these kids did it and I can swim, so it's just a remarkableeffort. I'm amazed and it's sad that the good doctor lost his father at the endof it.

JULIEBISHOP: That was very sad.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: That's a tragic aftermathbut these things happen. Are the boys families, last question, are the boysfamilies with them yet?

JULIEBISHOP: The first group that are out are nowwith their families I understand. The second group the families will be able tovisit them in hospital, but we shouldn't let this topic go without rememberingthe former Navy SEAL that died.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: That died, yes.

JULIEBISHOP: And Ithink that was a very sad outcome but nevertheless he obviously would have beendelighted to know that the boys were rescued. So that was a sad aspect to it.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: Itwas an incredibly risky thing to do for the divers, wasn't it?

JULIEBISHOP: High risk, very high risk. I wasreceiving reports constantly from our embassy in Bangkok. We had Department ofForeign Affairs and Trade Crisis Response Team members on the ground and I wasgetting regular reports. The planning that went into this, because it was socomplex, the cave system, the water rushing in, the equipment that wasneeded...

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: And at one point it was onlythis wide or something...

JULIEBISHOP: Exactly.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: That's the part that got me. Imean it must have been so hard for those boys. I mean navy divers, especially SEALs,they know the risk they take...

JULIEBISHOP: Sure.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: They sign up for the risk in asense. But these kids have signed up for nothing.

JULIEBISHOP: It'sinteresting that Dr Harris was identified by the British dive team as someone whohas experience in cave rescues. An anaesthetist, he's done a lot of work forthe Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade under our aid program. In fact hewas in Vanuatu for a number of years working in the Port Vila Hospital. He'sobviously a very good man and very experienced diver and the specialist thatthe British realised they needed in the team and then the Thai authorities atthe very highest level asked if he would come and he was available so it's awonderful story, it really is.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: We're all fortunate that youhappen to have a really good doctor with a really good record of cave divingand there wouldn't be too many would there.

JULIEBISHOP: I think he's a rarity and bringingthat combination of skills and obviously he used his medical experience. He waspart of the team assessing their health and the priority of which boys came outat which time.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: Did the strong come out firstor the weak come out first?

JULIEBISHOP: The strong came out first.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: Yeah I thought it'd be thestrong, yeah, because they'd give the weak more time to strengthen up.

JULIEBISHOP: They also knew that the first phasewould be the longest because they had to navigate their way. The second phasetook far less time because they'd done it once, they knew the pitfalls, so thethird phase they did in even less time. So it was brilliantly and exquisitelyplanned.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: How's the coach?

JULIEBISHOP: What an amazing story he has anyway.His life story is quite extraordinary, but he must have been keeping theirspirits up; he must have been coaching them, mentoring them while they were inthat cave. Seventeen days, think about it, 17 days.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: Oh yeah, I have thought aboutit, so much, in fact a couple of nights I couldn't sleep thinking about itbecause the horror is just, I don't know how I'd go doing it. I'm not sure I'vegot that kind of courage.

JULIEBISHOP: They would have been frightened,young boys wanting to get home to their families.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: Yeah. They're only12-years-old or something, aren't they?

JULIEBISHOP: Between 11 and 16 and the coach wasabout 25.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: Yeah, so the coach is notexactly an old experienced hand at staying in cave for three weeks is he.

JULIEBISHOP: We pay tribute to all of them.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: Yeah, to all of them. Okaynow, I want to talk to you about China because I notice Steve Bannon says we'rein the front line of the clash with China. Now while Steve Bannon is notsomeone to whom I would normally refer. Nonetheless, what I don't like aboutthis is the idea that Australia is in a clash with China. Do we have to be in aclash?

JULIEBISHOP: Certainly not. He's referring to themajor changes in great power presence around the world and without doubt Chinais a growing global influence. It is going to be one of the largest economiesin the world. It may well overtake the United States as the largest economy inthe world. Commensurate with that growing economic weight is a desire to bemore strategic and more globally and regionally influential. So history showsthat as economies grow, as countries become stronger economically, there arepowers bumping up against each other. Australia is not alone, there are anumber of other countries that have strong relationships with the United Statesand with China, and it is a balancing act. I don't see it as a clash at all, andI think Australia does it very well, but so do a number of countries. TheUnited States is our closest defence and strategic ally. China is our largesttwo-way trading partner. We have national interests that we must protect and indoing that we balance our interest between our relationship with China and ourrelationship with the United States, but as I keep saying we're not the onlycountry on earth. There are about 120 countries around the world where China istheir largest trading partner.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: Yeah, well, China's just, it'sjust so big and of course they've got more than a billion people to back it upso it's quite extraordinary. I often think to myself that if you can get to benumber one or two in China you must be some sort of hero because that's so hardto do when there's a billion people. Here you get to the top of the tree in 25million, you think you're pretty clever. Then you think, wow, over there isjust so much bigger. But just getting back to China, where are we on the SouthChina Sea, is that an argument that's over? Because in the end they built theirbases and you can't do much about it. So is that one over and is the SouthPacific the next?

JULIEBISHOP: Well, when you say is it over,countries will still insist on freedom of navigation and freedom of overflightand that's been Australia's position from the outset. We've been consistent andcoherent on the South China Sea. We're not a claimant state. There are abouteight countries with overlapping and conflicting claims over the South ChinaSea.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: Eight,are there really?

JULIEBISHOP: Yes about eight, different parts of theSouth China Sea. China is obviously one of the most significant claimants overmost of the South China Sea but Vietnam and others have claims, have variousclaims…

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: ThePhilippines have got a war in the water I think.

JULIEBISHOP: So we're not a claimant state, so wedon't take sides. We say that countries should negotiate their differences asAustralia has done in the past with conflicting claims that we've had. I meanwe had a conflicting maritime claim with Timor-Leste and we have resolved thatthrough negotiation under the UN Convention of the Law of the Sea and we'vesigned a treaty. Now, we know that there are maritime boundary disputes that goback generations, centuries even, that have never been resolved. But in thecase of the South China Sea, our position is that they negotiate peacefully, noone claimant acts unilaterally and if they can't resolve their differences,they can have resort to the UN Convention of the Law of the Sea.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: Do youthink China would adhere to that, though? See, aren't they in a position wherethey can say we're so big, they can put the old middle finger up and say, upyou?

JULIEBISHOP: Well, essentially the Philippines didtake China to arbitration but China refused to be bound by it because Chinadoes not recognise that any other country has a claim. This is the challenge.But Australia's position is we should be entitled to exercise our rights offreedom of overflight, that's planes, freedom of navigation, our ships, becauseso much of our trade passes through the South China Sea. So we should be ableto transit through the South China Sea to protect our trading interests, andthat's what we're doing.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: But ofcourse they're getting so much from us from ships going out they're hardly liketo stop us.

JULIEBISHOP: Well,that's true. See, we often think this is a one-way relationship, it's not atall. China needs our commodities, our iron-ore, our coal, they buy a lot fromus, our agriculture.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: Andwe're a reliable supplier.

JULIEBISHOP: And we are a reliable and trustedsupplier of the commodities that China needs. So, there are benefits both ways.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: Alright,let's turn to the person that everyone turns to these days; Donald Trump andNATO. It's quite extraordinary what's going on at the moment, is it not? I meanit just seems to me that he walks in sort of begging for an argument almost.

JULIEBISHOP: President Trump has a point, and he'sbeen making it for some time, that allies have to share the burden of defendingtheir own countries in their region, and so he's been consistent on this. Hehas raised the fact that the US spends more of its GDP on defence than otherNATO allies, although Britain's not that far behind.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: Germanyis, though.

JULIEBISHOP: Germany's further behind and I thinkthat's where he's targeting his criticism. So, he has a legitimate point onburden sharing. NATO countries are responding, some of them like Poland,Estonia, are over 2 per cent, that's the benchmark he's set; 2 per cent of GDPon defence spending. The United States is about 3.5, Britain's over 2, Germany'sdown about 1.2 or 3. So his point is that Germany should do more. Germany nodoubt will.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: Do you really believe that?No doubt will.

JULIEBISHOP: I believe Germany will spend more ondefence than.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: Enough to satisfy Donald?

JULIEBISHOP: Well, that remains to be seen. That's amatter for Germany, obviously, but I think the point is the NATO allies havebeen responding. They do recognise that the United States has carried thegreatest burden ever since the Second World War. And we have to look at NATO inthe context of why it was established in the first place. But it is a vital,important alliance and Australia is an enhanced partner of NATO, and we supportthat.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: No, Iunderstand this.

JULIEBISHOP: Andwe certainly support NATO and the alliance continuing to be as strong as it canbe. Now, if other NATO members have to increase their share of the burden, thenPresident Trump has made a valid point.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON Butthe President's also, I mean I'm confused here because if you look at history –especially if one looks at the last 50 or 60 years since the Second World War –you look at a situation where the Russians were enemies, they had movies, The Russians are Coming, and things. Itwas always about the Russians.

JULIEBISHOP: TheCold War, of course.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: Andthe Cold War well, it seems he is more attuned to Vladimir Putin than he is tohis allies in Europe.

JULIEBISHOP: It'san interesting scenario. President Trump's form of diplomacy is very much aboutpersonal relationships, and they are one-on-one relationships. Look, if it endsup in positive outcomes then it has been worthwhile. If he is able, forexample, to negotiate an agreement with North Korea whereby North Koreadenuclearises, well then his personal connection with Kim Jong-un has been ofgreat value to regional and global peace and stability. So it is a differentform of diplomacy but hopefully there will be some positive outcomes.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: Do youthink it's the right form of diplomacy?

JULIEBISHOP: Wehave to see what the outcomes are. A few years ago, in fact a few months ago,nobody thought that a President of the United States could sit down with theleader of North Korea and negotiate

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: Isn'tthat a triumph for the leader of North Korea? I would have thought he's playedhis cards pretty well.

JULIEBISHOP: Well,it depends what eventuates, and it's early days. I mean history shows thatnegotiating with North Korea is not a straight forward exercise, it's one stepforward and several steps back. So we'll see what the outcome is. Secretary ofState Mike Pompeo has been in Pyongyang recently. I'll be meeting with him atour annual Australia-US Ministerial Dialogue that's coming up in a couple of,in about 10 days in San Francisco, and have an opportunity to talk to SecretaryPompeo and Secretary of Defense Mattis about where they see the North Koreannegotiations heading, what outcomes they think they'll be able to achieve. It'svery early days.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: I'vebeen there, it's a weird place let me tell you. It's a very, very weird place.Now, right off all those topics, I'm interested in what the standard response is,and if I'm an Australian and I'm smuggle drugs into a country, they're stupidif they do it in Indonesia or Malaysia but…

JULIEBISHOP: Oranywhere.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: Butyou'll know they'll do it. Yeah, but I mean in that sense they'll lop your headoff pretty quickly. Whereas you get that young woman from South Australia whofinishes up in a Columbian jail. What do the Foreign Affairs Department do forthem?

JULIEBISHOP: Wehave a consular charter and it sets out what the Australian Government can andcan't do. And essentially, any Australian travelling overseas who needs a levelof assistance, will receive it. We don't discriminate between who we think hasbeen smuggling drugs or who we think has been stupid. We don't judge, weprovide the same level of consular support and that will include getting intouch with the families, it will include if they're caught up in legalproceedings, giving them the names of lawyers, a list of local lawyers.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: But wedon't pay for lawyers?

JULIEBISHOP: No, weassist with access to doctors, we essentially look after their wellbeing but wedon't judge their guilt or otherwise, if they're caught up in legalproceedings. That's a matter for the courts of the country in which they're in.So the message I say all the time, when you leave Australia you leave behindour legal system, our justice system, our support system.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: And all of our protections.

JULIEBISHOP: All of our protections, you leave thembehind. So you go overseas there's a level of consular support that we canprovide, but it depends where they are. We don't have an embassy or a highcommission in every country around the world, we have about 110 but there are…

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: That'snot bad though.

JULIEBISHOP: It'spretty good but there are about 200 countries and we have a number in somecountries. We have about four in India and four in Indonesia and the like. Sowe can contact the person who needs support, we can provide them with a levelof consular support but we can't interfere with legal proceedings.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: Soother jurisdictions are just theirs. So if you want to be stupid then you'vegot to pay the penalty. Look, last question, and they're telling me to wind upbut I don't care. It just seems to be crazy that this guy Santoro can be triedin Brazil for the murder of the woman that happened in Lane Cove, I don't getthat. Is there any chance of extradition? Because from what I'm reading there'snone.

JULIEBISHOP: Well, we are in negotiations with theBrazilian Government and you'd appreciate that extradition proceedings are verysensitive, they're confidential. We don't talk about them. What we want to seeis the best outcome, that justice be served in this instance and we arenegotiating with the Brazilian Government, I can assure you of that.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: Well,that was a Gasnean-like side step, well done. That's Julie Bishop, but I'mreally glad you finally got here. I've been trying to get this woman on theshow for about a year.

JULIEBISHOP: Oh c'mon, you have not.

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: Wellalright, six months. It is six months. It is six months. But she's absolutelycertain she's going to come on again before Christmas, isn't she?

JULIEBISHOP: You'vejust verballed me haven't you?

GRAHAMRICHARDSON: Ihave, yes. I have indeed. But Julie Bishop's always welcome here. Thanks verymuch for your time.

JULIEBISHOP: Thank you Graham.